Just because I identify as an introvert like I don't know, in my forties or fifties, I may be like life of the party because I'm exploring my extroverted side. It's just a tool to help you understand sort of your true nature and your preferences and how you can use those to your advantage really.

Hey there I'm Goli Kalkhoran and this is Lessons From a Quitter, where we believe that it's never too late to start over, no matter how much time or money you’ve spent getting to where you are. If ultimately you are not happy then it's time to get out. If you're feeling stuck and you feel like there's gotta be more, there's gotta be a way to feel fulfilled and excited about what you do, then this is the podcast for you. Each week, I will sit down with an inspiring guest who quit their professional career in order to forge their own path and create a life that they love.

Hi friends, welcome back to another episode. I'm so excited to have you here and today is going to be a fun one. It's a little bit different. It's an interview with my good friend, Christine McAlister, who was one of actually my first guest on the show. She was on back on episode 17, where we talked all about her quitting journey. She used to be a professor at a university and she jumped into entrepreneurship doing a marketing agency. And then she's gone on to create four or five successful businesses. She now has a company called Life With Passion, where she coaches high achieving people on how to leave their 9 to 5 and figure out what their passions are and replace their incomes with work that they truly love, which I know is right up all of our allies. So you should definitely check out her episode. It's a great one because she's not here to talk about her own story. So it is an interview but we're going to do something fun. Um I have been committed to try to figure out how to give you guys more tips and tricks and things to help you on your journey.

And what we're going to discuss today is just one thing that you can do in gaining clarity for what you should be doing, the things that you actually love because a lot of the questions I get is I don't know what I even like to do. How do I figure out what I'm passionate about? And so we'll talk about that today. Before we do, and speaking of the whole passion thing, next week, we were going to do our second book club. We will do February's book, which is Finding Your Own North Star by Martha Beck. And that's all about figuring out, you know, what you really love doing, like we don't have to call it passion. We can call it whatever you want but what is it that lights you up and how do you figure that out? Because so many of us have spent so many years burying deep down inside of us what we truly love and it's really hard to uncover that. So the book is phenomenal. I really, really recommend you read it. Even if you don't get it read before the episode next week, please pick it up and read it. It is helpful. If you're listening to this podcast, you want help with stuff like this. And I'm telling you that this book is a godsend. So uh pick that up. And in other news, before we jump in, um, I've mentioned that I am doing a free coaching session once a month, last month’s was so good. It was so helpful. And I think the people that joined really got a lot out of it. So if you want to jump on this month, which is going to be next week, the last week of February, or if you want to get on the list for future ones, go to quitterclub.com/coaching. Like I said, it's free and you can come and we can chat and I can help you with your journey. Okay? So with that, today I wanted Christine to come on to talk about personality assessments, like personality tests. Now, before you roll your eyes, I know that a lot of us come from these left brain type a jobs where you are rational and you only work with facts. And we only deal with science and we don't do this woo woo stuff. And we look at all this other stuff as kind of frivolous. And I used to think like that and I thought maybe it was fun. And sure, there's like tons of like funny assessments no, but there are actual personality assessments like the Myers-Briggs that have been around for decades and decades that are’s based on psychology. That is based on tons of scientific testing that helps you understand your own ways. Like what makes you tick? What do you like? What do you not like? How do you show up in the world? How do you deal with other people? All of that stuff. And when I took the personality test for the first time after I quit the law, it was a very strange experience because I literally felt like somebody wrote my personality out. I mean, I was shocked at how accurate it was and I didn't want to believe that something could know how I am but it was really surprising to me at how accurate it was and the reason it was so helpful and what we'll talk about a lot in this episode is for a lot of us that are raised to be perfectionists and raised to be very type a, we are either naturally or programmed to constantly obsess about our shortcomings or weaknesses or whatever we consider a weakness and we spend a lot of time beating ourselves up for not being good enough at whatever that thing is. Maybe you're not organized as much as you want to be or you're not as punctual as you want to be or you’re not as motivated as you want to be, whatever it is. You know, maybe you want to be more outgoing and you want to uh network with people or be able to speak in front of a crowd, whatever the thing is that you think you lack, you tend to focus on that and you forget about everything else that you are insanely good at. And when I read my personality assessment, it felt like I was really seen, where I felt like oh, this is just the way I am. And instead of trying to beat myself up and be mad at myself and think that there's something wrong with me because I'm not as organized as other people or because I, you know, look at the world in this way or that way, how can I really play to my preferences? And my and the things that I like doing. And so it was honestly a journey of like self-compassion for myself and really getting an understanding of who I truly am and what gives me energy and what lights me up and what are things that I just don't like or that my brain just isn't wired in that way and that's okay. And another side effect of this has been, it has really allowed me to understand other people, in relationships like with my husband or with uh, let's say right now I hire an employee, I make them take this test because it helps me understand how they communicate, how they work, how they tick so that I don't take it as like either offensive or, oh, you know, if I want someone that's going to be punctual, that's going to be on time every day. Well, I know what to kind of look for and it's not bad if someone doesn't, it's just that like this in this role, I need someone to be like this. And so it has allowed me really to understand how other people work and it's allowed me to have a lot more empathy. Um, and I'll discuss a lot more of that in the episode with Christine. So I want you to keep an open mind about it. I think if you haven't taken one, there's no harm in trying. There's a bunch of free tools. We'll talk about where you can take these tests and read it over. If it doesn't jive with you and you think like it's completely wrong, then fine, no harm done. You've spent 15 minutes and you can move on with your life. But what I imagine is that it will give you some insight into how you are, and that will help you in figuring out that next step, the thing that you should be doing. It'll help you in, if you're trying to figure out a business, planning it the way that's going to work with your personality, not just doing things because it's the way they've been done or that's the way that everybody else says you have to do. Really figuring out how do you work well and how can you set up the next thing you're going to do so that you are successful? So that you're not white knuckling it. So you're that you're not resisting everything. So I will jump into that. Christine, who is certified in reading these assessments from the Meyer-Briggs can tell us how we can figure out what our personality types are. So let's jump in and see what Christine has to say.

Hi Christine, thank you so much for joining me again.

Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited.

Oh my God, I'm so excited because this is such a fun interview. I typically haven't done a lot of these types of interviews and I'm really hoping to incorporate more of them. I know that it's going to be really helpful and I think there's more we can do on this podcast than just doing stories, which are great and inspirational, but kind of figuring out how do we give people some tools and tips and stuff to help them on their journey. So I'm super excited to jump in. I gave a brief intro and I know that you were on the podcast before and people should definitely listen to that episode but why don't you just give us a quick version of what your quitting journey looked like and what you're doing now, before we jump into all things personality tests.

Sure. So I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I was the kid with a side hustle, pet sitting and babysitting, and I did the traditional go to university right after school. I went in with my major declared. I studied media communications undergrad and in graduate school, thought it was going to be a film producer or a television producer. What wound up happening is that I became a professor instead teaching these things, one of the top, one of the top schools for media communications in the country. I really liked the teaching aspect but I didn't like the job aspect. Then I became a career counselor helping the same population of students, also did not like the 9 to 5 life. I had started a side business the minute I got my first job as a professor doing media for small businesses, so online marketing. That was the company that took me out of my 9 to 5 life. After five years of running it as a side business, I ran it for five years full time. And then in 2015, I took everything that I learned about running an online business, online marketing, teaching, counseling, a lot of the things we're going to talk about today, helping people understand themselves so that they could design work they love and I started my current business, which is Live With Passion, which helps achievers quit. And stay out of 9 to 5’s by building businesses that they love. And that brings us to today.

I love that and that's right up our alley. I think a lot of people are looking for that kind of support and guidance to be able to figure out what is the next step. So I would encourage everybody to check out Christine and I, we will talk about how you can contact her and we'll have all of her information in the show notes. But, um, now going back to what you know, we are here to talk about today and these personality assessments, how did you first kind of get involved with whether either using it for yourself or using it for your clients and what purpose has it served for you in helping clients figure out what they should be doing?

I can remember being really interested in this stuff as a kid. And at some point growing up, I was given the Myers-Briggs assessment. And I remember just feeling like really understood when I got my results. For somebody who's spent a lot of her life feeling different than most of the people around me, like I think I'm an old soul. And so I was always acting older than my friends, right? Like I was a really good kid. I had never really went through a rebellious stage. I was just kind of like playing in the box while I had these big, big dreams. And I couldn't really figure out what was wrong with me that like I wasn't making these big dreams come true. And you know, that for me, it was fear, but the Myers-Briggs assessment really helped me understand like so much about myself and see myself as like not just this weirdo who wasn't like anyone else. It helped me make sense of of myself in the world. And then when I became a professor and a career counselor, I had the opportunity to get certified in it. I was so excited to do the training because I realized it was going to be a tool that could help me help others make sense of themselves. Right. And not just like me. I use it a lot in my roles as a professor and peer counselor and I have continued to use it the whole 15 years of my professional life now with clients. And of course friends and family because it's just a really fun tool to help understand each other.

Right, absolutely. And I think that some people in the traditional world tend to be skeptical of things like this, you know, and they think that it might be a little woo woo or, you know, I think they sometimes relate it to like astrology and horoscopes. And I remember not, I never took a Myers Briggs test, or never took any of these tests until after I'd quit law because I I just didn't see the point in them. Can you explain to us a little bit what this is and how it's supposed to kind of be used and what people can get out of it?

Sure, totally. So they're all different kinds of assessments out there. Right? And you narrow the like what Disney character are you, right? There are ones that are super like spiritually based, like somebody in the woods got this idea for awhile and, you know, it became a whole thing, everything in between. Any of these assessments are going to have like their proponents on there. What I like about this and in particular is that it's been around for a long time. It came out Carl Jung's sort of archetypes of personality. And then this mother daughter team put together this framework of looking at the world based on Jungian Psychology that has been studied and given, I mean, so, I don't know the numbers, but certainly millions of tests, right. And has been found helpful, not like as a prescriptive, okay, here's the box you have to fit in. But theory says like okay, there are these sort of four different spectrums and the way that you identify your preference on each of those spectrums like combines into this unique four letter type for you, but also over the course of our lives, like with everything else, we explore like all sides of the spectrum. So just because I identify as an introvert like I don't know in my forties or fifties, I may be like life of the party because I'm exploring my extroverted side. It's just a tool to help you understand sort of your true nature and your preferences and how you can use those to your advantage really.

Absolutely. And I, I mean, I couldn't agree more and I, when I took the Myers Briggs, I remember the first time like being blown away at how accurate it was and thinking like how does this know me so well? And I think that the power in that is what you said earlier about so many of us grow up thinking that there is something that is wrong with us. Some part of us is wrong. And we spent so much time focusing on quote unquote, weaknesses that we have, or that we think we have and wanting to change that thing or beating ourselves up for like why am I not more outgoing? Or why am I not? Why can't I get the details right? Why am I always late? Actually, that's a really well and we'll talk about it when we get into it, because I'm a very punctual person and I never understood that people view time in different ways. Like I thought time is a linear, what do you mean? Like how do you not realize when you have to be somewhere in 30 minutes how long it's going to take you to get there? Because I view it very linearly. I mean, just starting to look at these tests really opened up my understanding of how other people view the world and that it is not the way I view it. And it's not that they're trying to disrespect me or waste my time or whatever. It's just that we are, we all really move in this world in different ways. What I love about it and what I love after I started really getting into this. And I think that it's, this is the way that you have been created. However it is, whether that's nature and nurture or whatnot. For me, it was a really a big tool of like self-compassion to be like okay, these are not strengths or weaknesses, like this is who I am. And I can spend the rest of my life trying to fight that or I can accept it and say like okay, how do I build a business or my life or whatever, to accentuate the things that I love doing and that I'm good at and that I find joy in and not worry so much about the stuff that I think I should be doing. Because of that, that's why I really will encourage all of you to take some time to take these tests. And like Christine said, there's a million of them. I think Myers Briggs is the oldest and most popular. And we'll talk about what the categories are. And you can even look up what yours mean.
You don't have to take the test necessarily. There are tons of other ones. Like I know a lot of people love the spark type. A lot of people love like enneagrams and that's a little bit different, but I do think you can start kind of going down this rabbit hole and it's great in the beginning for exploration and stuff. I don't think that you necessarily need to go take every personality test. I think what you said earlier, too, is something to keep in mind is that all of this stuff, like even when you're going through these four categories, it's not one or the other, you're a hundred percent like extroverted or introverted, it's all kind of on a spectrum. And so you may actually find that you're between two different personalities out of the 16 personalities, because for me, and we'll talk about it, I can kind of go between. In one category, I'm sort of, not in the middle, but you know, I can see myself fluctuating a little bit. And so that kind of changes it. So it's not to paint you in a box, like you were saying where it's like this is who you are, but I think it's just more really getting an understanding of who you are and giving yourself more compassion for that.

Yeah, for sure. And I think like different people are going to resonate or be drawn to different assessments, right? This is just the one that I've used for 15 years. The one I can speak most intelligently about, but you know, they're they're all just information and tools that can help you navigate the world better.

Absolutely. And I think bringing it back to what this podcast is about, I think most people that are listening are sort of trying to figure out what is the thing I should be doing next. You know, if I want to quit this job, what should I be doing? And I do think that this, it's not going to give you like a full on answer right in the beginning when it's like oh, this is the job you should do. But once you can get a better understanding of what makes you tick and what you enjoy and what kind of a per-, just generally how your personality reacts in the world, it starts helping you figure out like because sometimes we get drawn by like shiny objects and it's like oh, maybe I should try this business. Or maybe I should. And it's an easier way to say like am I actually going to end up being happy in that type of a role? Because it requires me to be with speaking in front of tons of people and I don't like that or whatever, you know, the case may be. And so I think it really does help in even figuring out like what your next step should be. Let's jump in and focusing on the Myers-Briggs, why don't we start going through what the four categories are and how people can figure out like what their letters are going to be.

The first of the four categories is whether you identify as an introvert or an extrovert. Now, this is not about how much you like people. This is not whether you are shy. We live in a very extroverted culture. So introversion is very much misunderstood. And I think for a lot of us, if we tend to act introverted while we were growing up like that was seen as a negative trait and we were encouraged to be more outgoing and speak to strangers and whatever. I think sometimes there can be some shame around potentially getting labeled as an introvert or like for that to be seen as a negative thing. But all it has to do with is where you get your energy. Is it from being alone or is it from being around other people? Another way of saying that is, do you prefer to focus on the outer world or do you prefer to be in your own inner world? Which one gives you energy? I'm an introvert for example, but you would never guess it because typically the interviews and things that I do and the stages that I'm on and whatever, I'm so excited about what I'm thinking about, that I'm very energetic and running around with my hands up and by the end of the day I'm done and I'm ready to go either stare at a wall, If I've been putting out a lot of energy like that or just like kind of quiet. And that's how I recharge. So I love people and I love my alone time, right. And that is one type of introvert.

Absolutely. And I love you're saying this because again, going back to, I think sometimes what we view as like a strength or a weakness, and we like to put ourselves in a box. And so I hear a lot of people would likely identify as introverts and they get a lot of their energy from being alone and from being more in their own world, I hear that as they've decided that they can't network or they can't put themselves out there, let's say on social media or on stages or whatnot. And it becomes this like well, this is my, you know, I'm introverted. And I love that what you were saying, it's like it has nothing to it, isn't again, a strength or a weakness. This is like just knowing yourself. So knowing, okay, I can still be a speaker if I want, if that's part of, let's say the career that I want to do, or I can still be great at a networking event. I just know that I need to build in time to go home and recharge and be alone. You know, like I know that I can't go to a conference that's maybe four days and be back to back to back to back all with people all the time. Like I need to build in some time. But that doesn't mean, I think sometimes we use it as like a cop-out to say like well, I'm this way. And so I have this weakness and I'm just not going to try like doing this thing because, you know, and I just want people to understand that like none of this stuff means it's just understanding so that you can better equip yourself in situations.

Right. And maybe you don't want to do in-person networking. Great, there's this little thing called the internet. Most of my best friends because I run an online business and because I've been basically pregnant or breastfeeding for the last six years, most of my friends I have made online first. And then some of them, I have gone on to fly across the country to meet in person. Some of them I have yet to meet, but I still consider them some of my best friends because we can talk any time and in relative. And it doesn't necessarily require us being together. So you can go to in-person networking networking meetings in my city. My network is thousands of people all over the world that I've made online. That's what works for me in my life. But you may love to be in a room full of people and get really energized by that. And you could do that.

Right, exactly. I think most people, the first one is sort of maybe the easiest to figure out, like most people know if, I agree with you that I think there's a misconception of what introverted means. But I think now saying this, I think most people can understand either you're an E or an I. And so that's what starts this off. Now, I think by the end of us talking, you can kind of figure out what your number, your letters are going to be. But I will say if you take the test, one thing to understand before you're taking it, cause I've done this a lot is a lot of times we answer questions the way we sort of want. I think organization is important and it's like yeah, I do think organization is important, but I'm not an organized person. You know? And so I can say, I think that's important because like you don't want to say that you don't think it is, but I think being really honest about is that a priority for me, obviously not, like I tend to be kind of disorganized compared to people that are very, you know, like like things in certain places, that's not me. And so I would say when you're going to take it, try to be as truthful as you can about how you really are and not how you sort of want to see your ideal self.

Yeah, that's where a lot of the conditioning came from, right. So if you're an extrovert but you grew up in a family of introverts or if you are in a job where you're expected to be super structured. So that's where you're spending most of your waking hours, but you would really prefer to be super spontaneous. Right. So it's asking yourself like in an ideal world, how would I prefer to move? Not like what have I been trained to be because that's what makes me good at my job.

Right? Oh yeah. That's a great, great, uh, distinction. Okay. So we have E or an I. So you're an I, Christine, I'm an E. I don't think that's a shocker for anybody but what's funny is I I now I hear people talk about like extroverted introverts and I do feel like that. And that's why I think, because it's such a fluid thing because I love being around people I really do, but I definitely have a ceiling and like I hit it very quickly and then I need a lot of time alone, but then I also, so I just, I find myself, like it's very intriguing for me to now kind of watch myself with compassion and realize that I don't nec-, it's not that I want to always be with people. I really don't. It's like I like it in small bursts and I like being around a lot of people and I move well in those situations. I don't really get overwhelmed or like I don't this, you know, I think a lot of times introverts might be affected more by external stimuli and like noise and stuff. I'm not like that. But I do find myself after one networking event, like I have to come and I mean, just like you, I feel like I have to just stare at a wall. I have to not be around people. So I don't know what that means, but I identify as an extrovert. Okay. So we have our E and our I. Okay. So what's the next one?

The next one has to do with how you process information. There is the S and the N, those are the two letters on the spectrum. S stands for sensing. So if you are an S then you take in information with your five senses and you make decisions from that place. Okay. If you are an N, you take in information, you add your intuition to that, you add your own internal meaning to it and you make decisions from that place. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So like sensors from the way I understand it is that it's much more kind of specific answers, detail-oriented. Like you, it's like facts and figures. Whereas I think intuitives, which is an N is more big picture. You get frustrated with details a little more. It's more of like bringing in your own, like I, like you said, intuition to it. So I dunno, is that how you typically see the breakdown?

It depends on how this letter interacts with the third letter and whether it sort of aligns with what's happening in the third letter or whether it's competing with it a little bit. So each of those have their own distinctions, but I think typically, it again kind of goes to inner world outer world, but it has more to do with taking in information than it does interacting with people.

Yeah, this is the one where I can kind of go between the two. I don't know if I'm, I’m more, I would say, not strongly in one or the other. So I can, I think my letters could be either E-N-F-J or E-S-F-J. So I, when I read the descriptions for both, really resonate with both, so I feel like it's kind of a real, um, mix of the two. So that's why I wanted to like let people know too. It doesn't necessarily always have to be like a strong, you know, there might be, there's certain letters where you're going to feel very strong in one category. It's like no, I'm def- I definitely fall in this. And then there's others where you're like well, maybe I'm at a four out of 10 or a six out of 10, but I'm not, you know, I'm sort of somewhere more in the middle.

Yes and I think what that tip you just mentioned is really helpful. Anytime somebody comes to me and says, uh, I feel like I could be this or this or their letters are very close. The type, the like pure type theory says that we do have a clear preference, but it can be so helpful to read both descriptions, see if one resonates. If both resonate, cool, which parts resonate the strongest, like make your own thing. This is only meant to be helpful.

Yeah, absolutely. What I've heard from other people that you really use these in careers and in helping guiding people and even with like the Enneagrams is, you know, a lot of people, they do the assessments, but a lot of times, like I said, that can sort of be skewed based on how you answer the questions. They really make more of a decision by reading the descriptions and saying like oh no, this seems like it is describing me to a T and it may not actually be what you ca- ended up with in the letters in the test, because maybe you didn't answer it properly in certain ways or whatever. I do think it's, it is um helpful to read a couple of the descriptions that are like close to your letters. You know, like let's say with extrovert and stuff to see if like well, this does sound a lot more like me.

Yeah, well that's the deal with self-reported assessments, right? The data isn't just, this is your heartbeat. Right? Take all your stories that we're filtering through to get this answer.

So which one are you? Are you an S or an N?

I’m an N.

Okay.

Yep. So definitely it's not oh, I got to go with my gut. I have strong feelings about this stuff.

Yeah, I would say I lean a little more S but I can definitely be some N if I think, the more I, the more I trust my intuition and let it actually like guide me, I think I become more N, but I think we, a lot of times we've been socialized to be more S where it's like just go with what you see and what are facts. And I think because of that, I tend to often be more like analytical and rational. And that, that gets in the way.

Yeah, I mean, certainly that's your formal training, right? So lawyer also, it can be very cultural too. Like what family did you grow up? My dad, who I'm a lot more like, is an N and my mom, who I am not as much like but was my model for being a woman, is not an N. She’s an S and I've had to really like okay, who am I actually versus who do I think I should be in this role as a female, as a mother, as a wife, like all of those things, right. It can just, it's fascinating.

Yeah, I love that you mentioned that. And I think that's just raises a good point. I know we've talked about it before, like about how you're socialized, but again, going back to like what we have been conditioned to believe is good versus bad and like how you should show up in the world. I think often we contort ourselves to be something else. And then it's part of this whole process of figuring out what you should do. And I think part of like where this audience is, is you have tried to conform so much of your life to what you should do. What is the right thing to do? You know, what society wants you to do. And then you wake up and you find yourself like how did I get here? I'm extremely unhappy. And I think a lot of that is because you've buried the true you for so long, because like that is not what has been acceptable. And actually that's what we're going to talk a lot about in next week’s episode, because I'm reviewing, um, Martha Beck's Finding Your Own North Star. And I think the entire point of that book is like how do you figure out what is your true north star? And what I think is great to what you said is like a lot of times, again, we beat up, let's say like going back to the example of time, you know, I think obviously in our society, we value like being punctual and being on time and not being absent-minded and forgetting, or being late and whatnot. And so I think often we really try all the tips and tricks and productivity hacks and all this stuff to get ourselves to look at time linearly and conform so that we're not late for our job and whatnot, but a lot of us like feel very constrained by that. And I think that oftentimes when you start reading this and you can see like oh, this is the way my personality actually is, like this is why I have such a hard time dealing with, you know, like appointments and things like that. And again, being more compassionate with yourself and saying like that's okay, you know, and it's okay to figure out how do I start being able to move in the world in a way that I can function obviously in society. But that allows me to be more of who I truly am.

Yes, right. And when you're sitting in a job where you're miserable, but you have the good job and everyone around you is telling you well, it's, what are you thinking? Like why are you unhappy? You should be really happy, right? Like so I have a friend for example, who is south Asian and she is a first generation American. Her parents are immigrants. And to watch her like struggle with the value she was brought up with in terms of respect for her elders, right. That's very much ingrained. And for her to struggle to pursue something that makes her really happy when her parents have a story of like I came here with nothing, to give you a better life. Do not risk a good career to go pursue self-actualization, what's wrong with you? What did I do this for? You have to think we really have to be aware of those stories in the way that they can play in as well. Especially like if we're in a great job and we're unhappy, but we're telling ourselves we should be happy and like working to give ourselves permission to design work that we love, whatever that looks like. Again, this comes back to, like you said, who am I really versus what are the stories of who I think I should be put on me by other people?

Absolutely. Okay. So now moving on to the third letter, what is that?

This one has to do with how you make decisions. So this is a really fascinating one. The two letters are T, T stands for thinking, do you tend to make decisions from a place of logic? Show me the facts, show me the figures, show me the results. Show me the statistics. Or do you tend to make decisions from how you feel, the way that you feel a little bit. If you start to look at the people in your life and maybe some of the ones that you find conflict with, a lot of times, this is the reason because my husband is in IT. Okay. And he's a project manager for a fortune 50 company. So we could not be more opposite. He's had one job his entire career. I've started four companies, had a bunch of different jobs, blah, blah, blah. Right? When I go to him and say hey, my intuition, right? My N is like telling me this is the thing for me, I’ve got a really good feeling about this and I want to do it. And he's like well, where are the statistics? Show me like the evidence-based outcomes. And I'm like no, that's not how I make decisions. I'm going to be so frustrated by this conversation because I've already made a decision based on how I feel. And probably some of you are like yes, I’ve had this exact same conversation with X, Y, Z person in my life, knowing how you prefer to make decisions. It's so me and informed, it colors everything.

Totally, and I would say that I also think there is something to this. Well, just on that description, I would tend to think that I'm more of like a thinker in the sense that I do like facts. I loo- I do, like I, like I said, I've been maybe trained to be more in the logical analytical kind of space, but I think that the, cause I always come up F, and I think T’s are, you know, facts over everything. And it's always like looking at what's truthful versus what would make people happy or like kind of empaths. I think feelers are more like empathetic. So that's how I'm, guided all of my decisions are like how it affects other people. Even if I see something that is the right thing, or I know I'm right, or it's truthful, like I, if I know it's going to hurt somebody, I would never like bring it up. Like I don't need to be right at the expense of someone being hurt or whatnot. That's why I always end up as an F because I am so guided by like other people and how everyone's feeling and making sure and providing for everybody and making sure everyone's okay. And obviously that goes, that's actually been kind of my downfall as well as just the people-pleasing and making sure, like nobody thinks anything bad of me and all of that stuff. So I think that there is that distinction too, in the thinking and feeling is like if you are very much tied into other people's feelings and very, like you would identify as an empath then you'd probably be more of an F than you are a T

Agreed, agreed. And it doesn't mean that you are not, that you can't be a high achiever or that you're just like flitting around, right. Like fly a flighty, whatever. You're still like have the ability to make logical decisions. This is always a spec-, a fluid spectrum. You can’t get back to, you can’t do something like a budget, whatever, right. Like let's just make sure that that's clear, but at the same time, this is about how you prefer your core, like the heart of who you really are, to make decisions.

Absolutely. And I actually think that this allows you to make, knowing that for me, for instance, it has helped me make decisions because I can now recognize like oh, I know that this is the right way to go, but I'm just worried about hurting this person because that's my MO and then I start taking that out of it. It's like I can't be responsible for people people's feelings like I have to do what's right for me or whatnot. I do think being able to now realize like oh, that's just the way I operate. And I think often we feel a little bit of a shame about being a people pleaser and real. And you know, there's so many now like Instagram quotes and like we go around like stop caring what other people think and, you know, and, and it's like oh great, yeah, if I didn't have a human brain, that would be wonderful. You know? But like I, I can't, I literally can't. And so for me, it's actually been really helpful to be conscious of it and be like oh yeah, I'm only not taking this step because I don't want this person to feel bad or whatnot. And so then I can kind of force myself to, into that uncomfortable situation.

Right. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Yeah, I mean, we are literally, as humans, wired for connection, which means we are wired to care about what people think, which is why the human race has survived, like let’s not beat ourselves up for this.

Yeah, and I just think it's a way, again, I think if you take this stuff as a, as not like an end all be all, and this is the way that I am, or there's like a problem, but look at oh, this is what usually trips me up because I tend to come from this perspective. And I think the opposite, another person could be like oh, I tend to always want to do what's right. And sometimes that's not the best way to go about things. Like that's why I alienate people maybe, or maybe, you know, that's why I've had situations where my wife or my uh spouse or my employees are upset because I'm not really taking into consideration people's feelings. I'm only taking like this was what makes mathematical sense. And that's not always the calculus, you know, like you have to figure out a lot of other things and it, it's just good to be aware of how you operate.

Yes. And so these two letters together make up what they call the heart of type, right? Like the core of who you really are. I have a friend, I'm an F- feeler, I have a friend who is an S-T, and a lot of times F-Ns and S-Ts would really clash and do really clash because they, everything about them is different, right? Like they make decisions differently. They take in information differently and they tend to be maybe in even different career fields. But my friend is a very self-aware S-T and so she'll just say I can be mean, you're really sensitive. Like you know how I come up, but we're able to be great friends and laugh about it because she's not like well I’m just gonna be me and deal with it, she takes into consideration hey, who am I around? I might hurt my husband's feelings cause he's more sensitive, but also I'm going to be blunt, but also attempt to be empathetic, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No and I love that. And again, once you're aware of how you are and through these personality tests, like I said, for me, you know, at the time thing, it lets you be aware of how other people are and realize like oh, maybe people don't look at the world as just facts, you know? And so that's why they're reacting in this way. Cause I think a lot of times it's like why are you so upset? Like this is what the facts are, you know, or this is what the situation is. And I think just really being aware like oh, this person is just more sensitive and that's okay. And like they just see it in a different way or maybe I don't care as much what other people think and you do whatever. And so again, this is all just to help you navigate life. So then what's the last category?

The last category has to do with how you interact with, so the letters here are J and P, for judging and perceiving. Now most of us, when we first hear this we're like oh, I hope I'm not a J cause it sounds judgmental, but that has nothing to do with whether or not you're judgmental. So like know that, hear me say that. It has to do with how much structure you prefer in your relationship to time. So J's prefer structure, J's prefer to do lists. J’s are like the day-timer types and I have to put it in my calendar. Like I want a structure and I'm not as into spontaneous things because I already had a plan. Whereas P’s are going to be more likely to resist structure, to always be up for something spontaneous, to not want to make plans until the last minute to see if something better comes around or to see how they feel about something. They tend, not always, they tend to be more disorganized because they prefer a more spontaneous, free-wheeling approach to life. Now we need both types, but being in any kind of a relationship where one person is a J and one person is a P, it can create conflict because a P is more likely to show up late, a P is more likely to lose track of time, a P is more likely to keep their options open. Whereas a J is probably going to be more structured and can come across to a P as more rigid.

Right, right. No, absolutely. I mean, I, this one, I'm a, I'm a strong J. I think it's it's good to know because like I honestly didn't realize that people didn't look at time linearly. I didn't, never understood this. And so it's just interesting for me now, like to be more empathetic and understand how people, and I think we value so much like organization and being on time and stuff and it's like just, some people just don't operate that way. And so it is very helpful to know.

Yeah, it's really, it's really interesting to watch how this plays out in designing work that you love, whether you're in a career, in a 9 to 5 or in your own business, or some combination, because if you are a J and you're setting appointments, you're probably going to show up pretty close to on time. You're going to be hyper aware of the time. If you are a P you probably aren't, right. And if you are, let's say you’re a P and you're trying to design something, or you need to show up back to back to a bunch of appointments you're probably going to be late, right. Whereas if you have a day to do whatever suits your fancy, you're probably going to love work.

Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. Again, I think it's just a matter of once you know that, then you can build in the type of work that you want to do, or the type of structure, like the day that you want to have. And then maybe, you know, obviously like we all have to operate in a world that isn't gonna bend itself to our, all of our whims. And so it's a matter of seeing like maybe if I don't like structure, maybe I can calendar in a certain amount of time that I will do the things that need to be structured. Like I'll just do calls between this time so then the rest of the time, I can have a lot of open space of like figuring out and being creative and giving myself, just deciding what I want to work on at that moment. Or I think the opposite, I think a lot of us that are really linear with time and structure and make a million to do lists is like trying to figure out how you would benefit by maybe keeping some of that time open for yourself to try to be creative and try to allow yourself to kind of not have it always be so structured. I think a lot of this stuff is also good in trying to push yourself to evolve and grow and do things that are out of your comfort zone.

Yes, exactly. Yep. To become like the best version of yourself and really to understand what's going on inside of you so that you can, as much as possible, align work to who you are.

Absolutely. Okay. So now that let's say people have a better idea of their letters. So what can you do, I think with respect to like business or work, if you're trying to figure out what the next thing you should be doing, like how do you use this to help you?

The research around these these types and these preferences gives us an idea into the core motivations of each type, which I think can be so useful. So for instance, as an INFJ, some of the different titles, like to kind of summarize what we are, what we're about are like counselor, teacher, right? If you look at my actual job skills, I was a professor, I was a career counselor, we're all about helping and empowering and advocating others. So like for me, I know that impact is the most important thing for me, even before I think about income, if income was the most important thing for me, I would just go do a job where I can make as much money as I wanted, but that is not fulfilling for me. That is fulfilling for some people, like to just go out and win with as much money as possible. That's a thing, that's not my thing. I know impact has to come first or I'll just like, I won't do it. When I’m focused on empowering people, when I'm focused on like who do I help? How do I help them? How do I make the biggest impact? That's where I get my energy. And then the money that I charge becomes a by-product of providing energy. So it's like knowing your core motivation is key to creating work that you love, whether it's in a 9 to 5 or whether it's in your own business. So that would be the most important thing that I can tell you is use this assessment to identify your core motivation for doing your work and then ask yourself, like is the work I'm doing or the work I'm thinking about doing, am I being drawn to that because it's going to feed that motivation?

I love that and where can people take this test to start assessments at the end and figuring out what their core motivations and things like that are?

There's a free version at sixteenpersonalities.com, 1-6 personalities.com. It's not the official, like Myers-Briggs interpreted by a certified person that you'd have to pay for and all the things. That's the one I recommend, the 16 personalities.com. I find it to be very accurate. And then there's also a book called Please Understand Me Too, which is an older book, but it goes through, you can probably grab a used copy of it on Amazon for a couple bucks. It goes through all of the different types and it talks about them like in work, in relationships, as parents, like some of the more in-depth information than you even get in the free version of 16 personalities. Um so that can be useful just kind of for additional insights into your type, or maybe like the type of other people in your life that you're trying to understand.

I love that. And I'll link to both of those in the show notes. And actually there's another website that I had found it's called truity.com that's free, that I didn't take, I don't know if the personality tests or anything are uh free, but it basically has all of the assessments for every letter. And I thought 16 personalities was spot on too. And I think that goes really in depth, but this is another one that really does like an overview. It gives you strengths, it gives you like careers. And it's funny that ESFJ, which I am, it has a list of careers that are good for you. And then it has like a very short list of careers that you should avoid. And of course, lawyer was on there for me, but whoops, should’ve read this before I went to law school, but anyways, they have all of the letters and all of the assessments. So it helps, like I said, I mean, I read the ESFJ and then I went and I read the ENFJ and then I realized like oh, I'm sort of a mix up between these two. And that really kind of uh encompasses all of my strengths and weaknesses. That is another place that you can go and maybe just read about the assessment part once you have your letters. And I will link that in the show notes as well. Anything else that we should know about, you know, how to use these or what kind of tests we should be taking? Any final thoughts, Christine?

I think the biggest thing is just like the theme that we've been saying over and over, like this is simply a tool. It's not a prescription and it's another tool in your toolbox to play with. Right? I think most of us like aren't used to approaching designing work that we love from a sense of play. It's like what should I do? What will make me the most money? What will make me happy, right? And there's a lot of pressure associated with it. And so my encouragement to you is to, to use this with as little pressure as you can, because, I mean, the name of my company is Life With Passion, right? If I'm going to tell you go make this really hard, then like I'm not being congruent with like my mission and what I'm here to do. So the best thing that I can tell you to do is to approach this with a sense of curiosity, and to be open to like learning something new. Even if you think you already know everything there is to know about this, maybe go back and reread your type. If you know nothing about it, maybe go in and instead of like getting overwhelmed by all the things, maybe just find like one thing that stands out that you could take back to your work and look to play with or integrate more into it.

Yeah, I love that. And Christine, where can people come find you if they want to learn more about Life With Passion?

I'm over on Instagram LifeWPassion. As an introvert, I love one-on-one conversations so feel free to DM me. I also have a free chapter of my book that you can grab at lifewithpassion.com/free chapter. That book, the income replacement formula is all about designing work that you love.

Awesome, thank you so much, Christine. We'll have all of that in the show notes. This has been so fun.

Thank you for hosting me. I love it.

Thank you so much for listening; I can't tell you how much it means to me. If you liked the podcast, please rate and review us on iTunes. It'll help other people find the show. If you want to connect or reach out, follow along on Instagram and Facebook at LessonsFromAQuitter and on Twitter at QuitterPodcast. I would love to hear from you guys and I'll see you on the next episode.