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Hello my friends, and welcome to another episode. I'm so excited you are here and I'm so excited for this very important topic that I've wanted to bring to the podcast for a really long time. If you're in the membership or if you've been around here for a while, you know that I talk a lot about the patriarchy and expectations on women in my membership in the Quitter Club. I feel like I coach on this every coaching call because it is so insidious and it has seeped into every aspect of our lives.
And most women still don't really understand how much these expectations that have been put on us are what are driving most of us to burnout and really drive ourselves into the ground. And until we can become aware of it, we can't change it. And so I've really wanted to have this conversation for a while and there's no better person to have this conversation with than my friend Nicole Kalil, who is the host of the podcast. This is women's work and her whole goal with the podcast is to eliminate gender expectations and redefine what is women's work. And so I invited her on because I really wanna have this conversation of like, how do we decide for ourselves what we want women's work to be? And how do we start rejecting all of the shoulds, all of the expectations that we have, which seem to be endless, and for so many of us don't really seem to fit what we want in our life.
And while Nicole is an in-demand speaker and an incredible coach who focuses on helping people build their confidence, you should definitely check out her free stuff that she'll tell you about at the end. And that is usually what she teaches on. I've asked her today to come and just talk to me more about what she sees in the women that she interviews and the women that she brings on. And in her own experience of leaving the C-suite and creating a different life for ourself is how can we kind of buck these standards and decide what it is that we want in our lives? Where do we start and how do we do that? So you're in for a treat. Without further ado, let's jump in and chat with Nicole. Hi Nicole. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am so excited to have you on.
It is my pleasure to be here. I'm super excited for our conversation.
Me too. And it is a very important one and one that I have talked about in bits and pieces, but I really wanted to do a whole podcast episode about this one. I'm so excited you're here. But before we talk all about what women's work is and just women in general, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and how you got to doing the work that you're doing right now?
Yeah, I mean, is is true for so many of us. It's a long and windy road, but I started in finance, actually, I got my teaching credential, decided that wasn't the career for me. Went into finance and worked my way up the corporate ladder. I was the first female chief development officer and my Fortune 100 companies, 160 year history, very male dominated field of finance. And I found myself really trying to fit in like setting aside my authentic self and what felt true and real and right for me in favor of what I saw around me, what it it appeared that it took to succeed. And so I kind of got disconnected during the course of all that from my confidence. And I got this promotion and I very vividly remember this moment of somebody leaned over to me and said, I wish I had your confidence. And I had this moment of like, I wish I had the confidence you think I have. And it began what I consider my life's work today, which is diving deep into what confidence is and how we actually build it specifically as women. Because I think our experiences and what separates us from our confidence is just nuanced and different than our male counterparts or any other gender. So I could go on for days, but that's the gist of it. . I
Love it. And you know, we will get into like, I, it's such an important conversation about confidence, but what, why I really wanted you on the podcast is you have a podcast and it's called, this is Women's Work. And I tell us a little bit about, you know, why you started that podcast or what that podcast is about.
So the title, like most of my titles are snarky. It's, you know, it was my way of sort of giving the finger to this old, outdated, antiquated notion of what, and I put in air quotes woman's work. Yeah. Is um, knowing that I would never fit into that definition. Like it just never sat right with me. It didn't align with my goals, dreams, ambitions, or aspirations. And so I kind of had this like, there has to be a new definition. And so my definition is doing whatever feels true and real and right for you and, and, and the real definition of woman's work is that you are the decider. Meaning what that means for me might be different than what it means for you as somebody else. And ultimately what it is is setting aside all the gender expectations and showing up in our lives, in our work and in our world, being authentic to ourselves, being on purpose for a purpose, and really bringing our unique gifts and abilities to the world without the governors of the shoulds and the supposed to Yeah. And the expectations and all that.
Yeah. I love that message. And one of the reasons, like I really do wanna talk about this more is because I know for so many of us, you know, we were raised in a patriarchal society that, you know, there's the traditional definition of what women's work was and being a mother and a wife and a homemaker and all that. And then women luckily, you know, fought for the right to be in the workplace. And then it became this kind of pendulum swing of like girl bossing and you know, breaking all the glass ceilings. And I think for a lot of us where we fall in different areas of that spectrum where it's like, but I'm not one or the other. I know for me, when I was a lawyer and I was quitting, I felt so lost because I felt like I don't want to work 90 hour weeks.
I don't want to be a partner. I don't want to do this thing where I, you know, I have this corporate successful career. I also don't wanna be a stay-at-home mom. Like I don't like I know myself and that is not a role. Like, God bless the ones that can do it. I don't have the patience for it and it's not gonna be a good thing for me or my child or my family. And so where does that leave me? And I know I felt a lot of shame. I felt like, why can't I make it quote unquote, why can't I just be one of these things and then, you know, now over time and I've done so much work, it's like, well that's just not what I was meant to be. And that's not the way that my personality is. And I think so many people still find themselves trying to fit into one of these boxes or both at the same time, which is like, what the huge problem now it's like, okay, you've broken the glass ceiling, but you also still have to be Betty Homemaker at home too. You have to be this perfect woman. And so how do you help, like how do you deal with clients that maybe come with you? And they are really stuck in this, but I don't want either of these. Like how do I figure out what I want?
Okay, so there's so many things in there. I'm gonna kind of take it in three parts. Yeah. First, one of the taglines of the podcast is from boardrooms to studios kitchens to coding dens from your street to Wall Street. We explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman. And so the multifaceted, I think is the word I wanna hone in on this idea that any of us are just, one thing is, um, a again, outdated and, and somewhat ridiculous. I also didn't wanna be dismissive of women who choose to do the more traditional definition of women's work. That is your choice. And I celebrate anybody and everybody's right to do what feels right for them. And so, you know, the multifaceted part I i, I think is probably the biggest part of what I'm trying to redefine it as. But the problem is, as you said, we've made a lot of progress and, and still have progress to make for sure.
But what I think was our undoing in all of the progress that we've made is we made it all additive, right? So we said, yes, we can have careers, yes we can have marriages and relationships and partnerships and yes we can have kids and yes we can have time for self-care. And it was one thing stacked on top of the other, on top of the other. And that is not, you know, possible , you know, at some point we burn out and it just, all it does is is serve to make us exhausted. It's also not what our predecessors, it's not what men have been doing all along. They haven't been, and I put in air quotes doing it all. For the most part, most men historically have been performing in their careers and have had a full-time partner who takes care of all of the other things. And we haven't created that for ourself. Yeah. We have just created this stacking of on top of uhhuh and like totally, it, it, it doesn't work. And so, and
I just, I'm gonna jump in really quickly too just because I also think that, you know, while we did fight for this right to work and I think women really did have to adapt to be able to, you know, be in kind of the old boys club and we learned how to stuff our emotions down and not be too emotional. And we learned how to balance all these things. Not to say that not, it is obviously not all men, some men have adapted and we see this now more in this generation, much more than previous. But men didn't also have to then adapt to taking on work in the home and with kids and stuff. And so, like you said, it became this additive thing on us is like, okay, you're gonna do all the home stuff and all the mental labor for the kids and the family and yourself and all this other stuff and then on top of that, you're gonna have a career and we're just gonna keep adding it. Whereas there wasn't this like, okay, well now we're gonna have a dual family income. We're we also have to have a dual family like share of responsibility. And like that sort of hasn't caught up. It is now because now women are, you know, vocalizing it more. But I think really the last 20, 30 years has been women trying to take it all on and seeing a growing number of women that are resentful and angry and burned out.
Yes, yes. And yes. And let me go on the record and say that I am not by any means anti-men. Yeah, of course. I do not advocate for women at the ex, the expense of men or any other gender. Uh, and I do think so much of this is wreaking havoc on all of our lives. And the patriarchy is not men, women are contributing and participating in the patriarchy totally. Just as much as our male counterparts. So I think it's important to say that in order to say this, I think part of the reason that we keep adding all of this stuff on is because of the expectations we've set for ourselves and that we hold other women to more so than I think, um, well definitely more than men do with each other and for sure more than I think that they do on us.
It's often us who thinks that we need to be a Pinterest mom while volunteering for the PTA while working full-time and managing teams of thousands while, you know, giving at our church or local community and blah blah, it's uh, often an internal thing that I do believe we've been socialized into, right? So it's not like our fault, but it's often the setting aside of those expectations we have with and for ourselves and each other that I think can be a really good starting point for creating partnerships in life and at work. I mean that's one of the things I really aspire to in my personal life is to create a partnership. My husband is a managing partner of a finance firm. He's got a great career, big ambitions as do I. And we've had to have the conversations of equal drop offs and pickups or covering for each other during different times in our careers where one person needed more support than the other. My husband does all of the grocery shopping and all of the cooking in our house. I handle the finances and the sort of household management. We've really divided and conquered a lot and we've outsourced quite a bit and we've let go of a lot in the letting go. More of that fell on me than on him letting go of this idea of who I was supposed to be as a woman and how I was to supposed to show up for all things and all people all the time. Yeah.
I think that's such an important point. And I think that is where a lot of this has to start. Like you said, of course it has been standards that have been given to us, but we prop them up. Like we continue to, you know, be complicit in our own kind of subjugation when we are like trying to live up to these insane ideals that are burning ourselves out. And I imagine that's part of where you start. Because my question to you is gonna be, you know, I, I'm certain that some people are gonna listen and say like, well that's wonderful that you have a husband that's willing to do that. But like my husband or my boss, I always get this where it's like, well my boss expects me to do X, Y, and Z or my boss asks me to get the coffee all the time even though I'm not, you know, I'm also a partner here or whatnot. And so what do you tell women who do want to make this difference? Who do wanna start changing a lot of these standards for themselves but maybe find that the people in their lives, and again that is also other women, maybe you're surrounded by PTA moms that are all volunteering all the time and the Pinterest moms that are throwing the birthday parties. And so you feel the urge to have to kind of keep up. What would you say to them?
Yeah, so it first goalie, it's like a loaded question, right? I know there's so many things to say and so many ways. So like the at work, if you find yourself defaulting to some of those more traditional female roles, whether that be getting the coffee taking notes or providing all of the emotional intelligence Yeah. Or you know, helping navigate through difficult conversations or creating culture or empathy or any of those things. I think, you know, to take a step back and first come from a place of curiosity, like one of the things, 'cause I, I am a reactive person and when I get triggered I tend to go mean . Mm-hmm . And so I had to realize that in most cases people had the best of intentions or they were unconscious. Yeah. And so, you know, me responding with fire didn't support me, them or what I was trying to create.
So asking questions and being curious, you know, help me understand why that might be the best use of our time and my salary given what I make here. , why would it be make the most sense for me to take notes or for me to get coffee? Isn't there somebody else that we should be asking to do that or you know, hey listen, I get that traditionally, you know, women have a higher attention to detail or at least there's the perception of that. So maybe it might make sense that it defaults that I take notes, but it doesn't really make me feel very good and I'm not as engaged or as invested in the meeting. And I think we're missing some of the ideas and productivity that I could bring to the table.
Yeah.
So I mean, again, there are lots of ways that you could address this, but I think starting with curiosity and the assumption that, you know, nobody is misbehaving as Alison Armstrong says, or that nobody's trying to be a dick
or they don't realize that they're being a dick. Yeah. They just are completely unconscious. The thing is that we all are kind of swimming in this water, right? And like, it's like a fish doesn't know it's water and a lot of people don't understand that they're operating even ourselves under these kind of patriarchal guidelines. And so I love that where it's more of just bringing attention. And I always talk about this like learning how to advocate for yourself of even asking like, okay, my plate is really full with these projects. Which one would you like me to give up so that I can volunteer on this, you know, party planning committee that you want me to do for like birthdays or whatever. Like, I think it helps people understand like, oh well no, that's not as important as, it's a different way of bringing awareness to it other than like guns blazing.
Yeah. Or you know, my goal is to achieve this at the company, or my goal is to contribute to this goal within the company. Help me understand how this program or volunteer thing or you know, is going to help us or me achieve that. 'cause we often think that by doing all the things and saying yes to everything, that we'll get what we want. But unconsciously and the research supports that we end up getting ourselves out of the running of some of our key opportunities and what it is that we want because there is no direct correlation for this thing that we volunteered for and the job that we want or the opportunity that we want. And that I think brings me to another thing, and this is gonna sound potentially flippant and I don't mean it to be, is think about some of these things before you get into the situation.
So if you're thinking about changing careers or if you're interviewing for jobs, asking some of these questions, talking to some of the women in the organization asking like, how would you deal with this? Or ahead of time? And the reason I bring that up is because I know in talking to so many women, this idea of creating partnership equity within and equity doesn't mean 50 50 across the board. Everything's the same. At least not in my world. My world equity means that we both get to win and that we're both supporting each other's dreams and aspirations and and all that. So I don't know how to change people, but I know nobody changes if they don't know what you want and what your feelings are and what's happening. But I also know that there is the option for us to be preventative. And, and by that I mean I didn't make my husband this way.
I dated and I dated until I found somebody who felt worth marrying to me because I was clear and I wasn't clear in my twenties. So if I would've met the person in my dreams and got married in my twenties, it would've been a hot mess. But when I met Jay, I was very clear I wanted a partnership. I was very clear, I had ambitions, I was very clear that I was committed to my confidence and my growth. I was very clear about a lot of things. And so I didn't get into a situation or a relationship. And again, it's not perfect, but I didn't get into a situation or a relationship that didn't serve who I am and what I want. And, and I think that's an opportunity that
Is a great, I mean I think that is a great distinction for everything. Like in the sense that there might be relationships and or jobs where you are not gonna be able to change much and maybe it's not the best place for you or maybe it's not going to be in line with like the type of life that you wanna live. And then there's places where, you know, maybe people are open to it, you are in line with your values with that person, but maybe they're not aware or that, and, and there is kind of making that assessment yourself of like, is this a place where there can be any change or you know, the culture is just gonna be such, whether it's at work or even in a relationship where like I won't really be able to make any headway. And so I think that is a really important distinction of like, have I gotten myself into a place where it's like the values really are aligned with me, but I just, you know, we're all kind of like I said, swimming in this water and we need to um, figure this out.
And then going back to what we said, a lot of what I work on with people is their own thoughts and their own, you know, 'cause you only control kind of your own yourself, your thoughts and your feelings and your actions. But this is exactly why it's so important is because there is no change until you decide for yourself that you wanna make a change. Like for you to like, it has to start with you being like, you know what, I don't wanna live up to the standard anymore. I don't wanna have this expectation of myself anymore and then I can, you know, have a conversation with my boss or my husband or my friends or whatnot. But if I'm constantly just giving in and again thinking if I do all the things that at some point I'll get rewarded where I won't, I'll just get burned out.
Like it has to start from there. One other thing I will just say is that like I have been with my husband from my early twenties and he is also very aligned with, he's a very, he's a feminist. He is very open-minded, he's always been very helpful. But he also was raised in the patriarchy. And so we very much fell along in traditional gender roles in the home and stuff. And one of the ways that I have worked on it, and it's the same exact thing that you said is that kind of curiosity and bringing awareness. But I think that what happens with a lot of women is that it's a lot of unseen labor. It's a lot of mental labor. You know, we kind of have the emotional labor. And so I just started making the unseen scene. I would just tell him, I would say like, not in a way of fighting, but like after one of our kids' birthday parties I would say like, Hey, I just want you to notice that like you showed up on Saturday and just was at this party and got to like host.
This is everything I did for this party for the last three, I just want you to know like, you know, food didn't just show up, right? And like presents weren't just bought and people weren't just invited. Like it just, this is a, the amount of work that it went. And over time he started being like, oh my god, yeah, I, okay, well like the next part it was like what should I be doing? And then, you know, and even that was the mental load on me on like kind of being the manager of the house. But it did start slowly changing where he started like figuring things out. And so I do appreciate that where it's like I under, I also understand that like he was raised in the same society and it has just always been a certain way. So he can't even see it. He's like, oh, I didn't even realize you were doing all this until I started instead of like in a fighting way. But it was like, hey, I just like, I don't know if you've noticed, but this is everything that I had to do this week. And it's a lot. And so anyways, that's just been my approach.
Yeah. So, and I think a few things to add on that is generally speaking, obviously this isn't true across the board, but generally speaking I think that women care more and notice more in our homes than our husbands often do. So like I notice when things aren't put away or when there's a layer of dust or when you know something doesn't match or when the kitchen is a hot mess, he doesn't notice and he doesn't care. And so that's my standard of what it means. Yeah. And, and so we had to talk about like, this matters to me. I get it doesn't matter to you, but I live in this home too, so how do we work around this? And so some of it was me letting go of the idea that he would or could or should care as much as I do. Some of it was outsourcing, some of it was letting go.
I also think, you know, one of the things I'm working on too is not being an enabler. So often I find myself picking up after or doing things that are unseen where it's, you know, and then they don't ever, and I say they because it's my husband and my child don't ever have to see the consequences. Yeah. Or the outcomes. And I think that can be really important. And lastly, I think letting go of some of that mental load on my own and just asking. So I'll, I'll give the example. And my husband and I had a conversation a couple weeks ago about hosting Thanksgiving and he was like, I think we should do it. And I'm like, I don't think we should , it's just too much for me right now. Was my response. And he's like, well I'll handle all of the grocery shopping and the cooking and you know, I'll take it.
And I'm like, I get it. And that is a very big part of it. But I'm gonna have to handle the house being cleaned, making sure that we have all of the tables set up and there's enough places for people to sit in the cleanup and the aftermath and the flowers and the table decorations and the blah blah blah. Because if we're gonna host Thanksgiving at my house, that's how I would want it to be. That's how I, and I don't have capacity for that. So I appreciate your willingness to do your part, but I'm not in the place where I can do mine. So we either have the choice of you picking up my part two or we don't do it. And it was just letting go of the guilt. And even like, I don't know if shame feels like a strong word, but the guilt of I, it's not in me right now. I I too many other things that are more important to me right now than that. And being upfront about it and not apologizing for it.
It's all so interwoven. Like when you say you know, certain things are more important to you, like the picking up and stuff. And not to say like that could be just a personal preference, but even that is the patriarchy because women are judged. Like if you go into a house and a house is messy, it is a reflection of the like, you know, we don't tend to judge. Yes. If you go into a man's bachelor, it's like, oh it's a bachelor pad and this is just the way it is. Or I think about this with my kids, if I drop off my kids and they look like a hot mess, you know, it's like, is mom hitting the alcohol in the morning? What's going on? Like, why didn't they, she brush your hair? But if my husband does it, if I'm out of town and my husband's like, oh how cute he got them to school, you know?
And one of her braids is like, you know, lopsided. And so it's fascinating 'cause it's really hard for us to even really decipher what is it something that I, it is important to me and why is something important to me? Because I know it is a reflection of me that people will judge me for it. And so I want my house to be picked up and I want it to look nice and I want Thanksgiving to look a certain way. Not to say that obviously like I just like parties looking a certain way as well. I get satisfaction from it. But this is where it gets so tricky 'cause it's like women are judged so harshly on everything, on the way we look on the way our family looks and the way our house looks on all this stuff. And so then we take that on as to like, no, I just want this.
And going back to what you're saying, like part of what I had to learn, a lot of the guilt of letting go is that is 'cause we had the same arguments all the time. My husband would loves, I mean we both love having company over and he would always be like, well who cares? Just like order the, you know, put out one tray and I'd be like, no, it has to be, you know, and I had to really sit with like, does it have to be, yeah, what do I think it means about me if people come over and there isn't a whole spread and it's not the most glamorous and whatnot And it's like I really was making a, you know, taking on a lot of what it meant to be a good host and to have, you know, and all this stuff. And so a lot of that was learning like do I wanna let that standard go? Do I wanna like, you know, allow people to think what they want of me and still be able to have the connection with my friends over without making it, you know, as big of a hoopla.
My husband often says nobody cares about that stuff. And I'm like, oh, but they do trust me. They absolutely do. And as I've gotten a little bit older, I think I've just gotten to the point where it's like I have some of those desires, some of those have been put on me and I need to like really check in, does this really matter? Is this the hill I really wanna die on? And also just being more particular about my circle and who I surround myself with. If someone in my life judges me about how my house looks or my kids' hair while I'm launching a book, you know what? Not my people. I don't have time or space or energy for you. Yeah.
And I think it's all of this and that's why like I think a lot of what this work is is really doing deeper inner work of figuring out what is it that I want. Like when you went back to like a lot of the shoulds and we go back to kind of thinking about what kind of career do I want or what kind of home life do I want? And it may not be like what my neighbor wants or my cousin wants or my sister wants or whatnot. And that's okay. Again, like somebody could love all things homemaking and wants and feel super fulfilled and that's fantastic. And I think like, you know, part of feminism is that is the choice of like, do I want to do this or do I want to do that? And I think we don't spend a lot of time really asking like, you know, what is it that makes me happy?
What is it that I want? And so I guess, do you have any advice for people who maybe are in the beginning of that journey where they're in a place either in their career or in their home when they're like, no, I am burned out. I am at this place where I'm just exhausted and I don't know what it is I want, but I know it's not this. How do you start kind of really figuring out where the shoulds are and where you are, you know, and how you can start maybe rejecting some of that.
So first practicing self-awareness and listening to yourself more. And I know that sounds like kind of airy fairy, but literally carving out time and asking questions to yourself about yourself. Mm-hmm . What makes you feel the sun from the inside? When's the last time you felt joy? Where do you feel relaxed and at peace? Who gives you energy? You know, really paying attention to this sort of self-discovery of who you are, what makes you tick? One of the things I've recognized in my work is women don't know themselves at all anymore. We are so wrapped up on who we're supposed to be proving ourselves being all things to all people, doing it all. Having all being it all look good while doing it. Make it look effortless. I mean, who freaking has time? And the way I recognize this is I have an exercise that I do with clients.
It's called the things I know to be true about me at this point in my life. And it's just a laundry list of all of your unique abilities, talents, superpowers, strengths, whatever you wanna call it. And I would do this exercise with women and they would on average come up with six things they knew to be true about themselves. And I always thought like that's a little weird. I mean we're in our twenties, thirties, forties, we've had however many years of life experience and that's all we know about ourselves. And so I thought maybe there was something wrong with the exercise. So I tested having women do the exact same exercise, exact same parameters, exact same instructions except for doing it instead of for themselves, for someone they love, their partner, best friend, child, sister, what have you. The average they would come up with.
There was 32 things. And so it just became very clear to me that we've become so others focused and we've spent so much time people pleasing and being out there for everyone else that we don't know ourselves anymore, let alone appreciate or value ourselves at a really high level. So step number one, whether it be that exercise or you know, e even like, I mean like human design or Enneagram or any sort of self-assessment tool. Not because I think they're the end all be all, but because it triggers curiosity about you and you start thinking, oh yeah, that resonates with me or that doesn't. And really practicing building that relationship with yourself and having trust for who you are and what you bring to the world so that you don't default to doing something 'cause you think you should, but you'd rather you do something because it lights you up or because it plays to your strengths or because it gets you where you wanna go or because it matters most to you.
You know, that would be step one. Step number two is really to start small. I think we as women have gotten to the point where we think it needs to be like grand and big and like it needs to go viral in order for it to count. And I think that the way we get good at literally anything is by practice. So even the smallest thing, I'm gonna take five minutes today and do one thing on my list that brings me joy or I'm gonna, you know, take care of myself better today by drinking X amount of ounces of water or whatever it is. I mean honestly, whatever it is for you to start small and to not wait until we're quote unquote ready, this idea that we're ever going to be ready is ridiculous. The, the way we get ready is by jumping in and and doing. When you talked about feminism, I think one of the things that is part of women's work for me and part of feminism is the idea that we have more choices, but more than that, that more women have more choices. You know, I, I think of historically feminism was really about, you know, you think about getting more women in the C-suite. Okay great, that's part of it, but let's make sure that women have the healthcare that they need and the basic. So anyway. Yeah,
No, I mean I couldn't agree more and I think that the entire, not only each person is a multifaceted person, like there's just such a broad spectrum to women. And so to expect that like all women would be one way or would want something is so absurd. So to allow us to be the multifaceted people in our own way and to be able to show up and to have, like you said, the options is really the point of all of this fight. And so that is such a powerful exercise, what you were just talking about that is, I'm not surprised because I see that, you know, women have completely lost themselves because we've been, you know, taught to suppress and completely be others focused. And so I love not only that exercise, but the advice of starting small. And I also talk a lot about this or teach people this because we've even like suppressed all of our physical needs.
Like women don't know when they need to go to the bathroom 'cause they, you know, you hold it for so long 'cause you're taking care of the kids and you're at work and whatnot or when you're hungry or when you're tired or anything. And so it's like even just starting there, it's like I have biological needs, like can I start tuning into those a little bit more so I can really figure out like, you know, how I feel because I think we have been so disconnected from our bodies and from ourselves. And so it really starts there. This has been so incredibly helpful and I could talk to you forever about this and I, I, you know, I wanted to even touch on confidence, but I feel like that would just start a whole other podcast. We'll have to have you back if we take it back to like women's work.
So women really figuring out that career aspect, maybe where you were, you know, in your career and realizing maybe you didn't wanna be in that situation. I think like a lot of people that listen to this podcast are in careers where they know like, it's not right for me. And I know that the advice might be the same where it's like kind of start baby steps, but I, I wonder for so many people who are like, but I don't know where, you know, I don't know what I want. I don't know what my dreams, I haven't connected to my dreams in so long. How do they start that process?
Yeah, so I mean, I would go back to this exercise or anything like it, this increased self-awareness so you understand what it is that you want. 'cause I firmly believe that if we do work that plays to our strengths that, you know, has us using and giving our unique abilities to our work that, you know, challenges us or aligns with our purpose or whatever then, and there's no such thing as a perfect job that we love all the time, but we're gonna enjoy it more than we don't. Or we're gonna not spend every Sunday night wanting to, you know, jump out of window or hoping our leg breaks so we don't have to go to work tomorrow or whatever it might be. And so I think first asking yourself where you're at with your career, and if it's mostly I hate it, it's draining me of energy, then I think it's time to spend some time and self-reflection and, and self-awareness and self-appreciation and start doing a little fact finding of what careers are out there and in the meantime do something outside of your career that brings you joy. Because some of us, it's not as simple as just quitting, you know, and, and, and finding something else or starting a business. Not everybody's in the position where they can just walk away or that's even the right choice. And so as you're thinking through it, think about how to give yourself joy in the in-between, whether that be in between meetings at work or, you know, doing something for yourself after work or finding or or reigniting a passion or a hobby. Yeah, I I think being responsible for our needs being met.
Yeah.
And knowing that it isn't anyone else's job. Not our bosses, not our careers, not our coworkers, not our spouses, nobody else's job to meet our needs. We can ask people and we can hope that they'll step up, but if they can't or they're unwilling, then it is still our responsibility to continue to move forward until we get our needs met. And so, you know, IIII think with career it's, you know, spending that time and self-discovery and trying to find what is your next move that gives you a higher probability of feeling more joy than pain. And in the interim doing some things for yourself that build your confidence so that you can and will make the move when the time comes.
Yeah, I love that. And I think that answer, you know, oftentimes like we want some quick fix and it's like we have been steeped with these ideologies in our lives for our whole lives. And so it, it is baby steps of chipping away at these expectations or the shoulds and then chipping away at like really getting back in touch with ourselves. Like all of this stuff, the good news is it doesn't have to happen overnight. It can be these baby steps. And like you said, I think really like how you do one thing affects how you do everything. So when you are bringing in more joy in your life, when you are looking into like, uh, what you want to do, even small things every day, it does help reignite like that kind of curiosity and that self-awareness of like who you are and what you like and that helps you in discovering what you wanna do for your career and all that stuff. Like, it's all interconnected and it all doesn't have to change at once, but it can change even slowly. Like little things here and there.
I have a friend who told me once, she's like, I don't need my career to bring me joy. I just need it to not suck , I have joy in all the other aspects of my life. Yeah. I need my career to pay my bills and pay my lifestyle and not suck basically. Yeah. And like that's not my choice, but I respect that. Totally. And I think one of the other things that we need to stop doing is presenting this idea that any person has this dream career that is all joy and happiness all the time. Or or buying into anybody who says that, like, I call on anyone who tries to make it sound like they have a perfect life or a perfect relationship or a perfect career. I love what I do for a living and I have days where I wanna quit. I have days where I wonder if I'm ever gonna, you know, make it or make another dollar again. Yeah. Or get another client. I have days where I don't know what I'm doing, I have days where I don't have the support I need. I mean it's just,
Yeah, no, you are preaching to the choir. I mean, one of the biggest concepts I teach in my program is that like, life is always 50 50. So no matter where you get to, there's like this 50% that you're not gonna like. And even with careers, like the best, most amazing career is gonna have half the stuff that you hate doing because there's just part, you know, it's like I might love the coaching, I hate the backend, I hate doing accounting. Yeah. I hate, you know, it's like, and that's okay when you know it. 'cause you're not going in thinking it's gonna be rainbows and butterflies every day. You know, it's like it is what it is. So I love that. And so thank you so much for this conversation. I think that obviously this is just the beginning and I'm, I just think that more people need to have these conversations because I think women still are holding themselves to these shoulds and it has to start with us being like, this is.
You should not be doing all the things for all the people because that is impossible. And you're, it's like the fastest way to make yourself miserable. And so I really like, I love what you're doing, I love the concept of your podcast because I think it's so important to look at all of the different facets that is women's work and that you know is women's lives and to really talk about it so that we can kind of get away from these, the delusions that society has kind of painted for us and start creating lives where we have more freedom in 'em. So I'm so appreciative of you. Where can people find you? Where is the best place for them to maybe get more of this stuff? Yeah,
So nicolekalil.com is the website and on there is a free download of the things I know to be true about me if you wanna work on your own list. I also have my 40 plus page confidence building workbook that walks through all things confidence for free. So you can download both or either, that's probably the best, most helpful thing for you. Yeah. And then of course the podcast is called, this is Woman's Work. And I'm just gonna leave you with my sort of tagline, which is we're torching the old playbook and writing our own rules. Who runs the world? You decide because that is woman's
Work. Oh, I love that. I feel amped up and ready to go fight the patriarchy. Let's do it. , thank you so much Nicole. My pleasure.

Hey, if you are looking for more in-depth help with your career, whether that's dealing with all of the stress, worry, and anxiety that's leading to burnout in your current career or figuring out what your dream career is and actually going after it, I want you to join me in the Quitter Club. It is where we quit what is no longer working like perfectionism, people pleasing imposter syndrome, and we start working on what does and we start taking action towards the career and the life that you actually want. We will take the concepts that we talk about on the podcast and apply them to your life and you will get the coaching tools and support that you need to actually make some real change. So go to lessonsfromaquitter.com/quitterclub and get on the wait list. Doors are closed right now, but they will be open soon.